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"80% less stress": Family with newborn reveals how life changed after they left America

"I went to eat with my baby at a restaurant in Spain and my baby started screaming..."

family, parenting, kids, travel, living abroad, cultural differences, america, USA, europe, parental leave
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One family says living abroad with young kids has massively reduced their stress.

Most burnt-out parents I know have at least toyed with the idea of moving far, far away. You can only handle so many news stories of school shootings or eroding child labor laws in the US before you seriously start to think about what life could be like elsewhere.

And it's not even necessarily these drastic issues that are so worrying. It's the day to day: the high cost of childcare and living, the extremely fast pace of American life, and being horribly anxious that taking your kids out in public will bother someone's peace and quiet. It's all a lot, and it's taking a serious toll on American parents' mental health.

Marae and Roger Torrelier hit a tipping point when their five-year-old was getting ready to start school in the US. The two had lived in several different states, including far-away Alaska, but they were finally ready to try a different way of life.

The family of four now live in Malaga, Spain with their older child and a baby. Marae has been documenting the journey on social media and how it differs from their experience living in America.

For starters, they say they're way more comfortable being out and about with their kids in public.

"[In the US] we've encountered venues that even refuse children, whereas in Europe and Asia, children are welcomed almost everywhere," mom told Newsweek.

The family has found their new home in Spain to be far more family- and kid-friendly, not just in the design and policies of the cities, but in the way strangers interact and respond to children.

"Playgrounds have cafés so you can have a coffee, a meal or drink while the kids play. People often interact with our kids with kindness, neighbors know them and ask about them."

I remember visiting Italy with my then-4-year-old and being amazed at how relaxed I felt sitting in a piazza having a glass of wine while she wandered and played in the busy square. It's still one of my top overall memories!

In one viral clip on the family's TikTok, Marae admits "I went to eat with my baby at a restaurant in Spain and my baby started screaming..." You know, baby does as babies do. But what the people around her did surprised the mom.

"The chef came out running to see 'the cute baby' and see if he could make her something to eat. Then he started showing her to the rest of the staff."

In the clip, the smiling chef can be seen playing with the baby before passing her off to another staff member, who is overjoyed to hold the little cutie.

@bravefamilytravel

The sweetest people 😭 #spaintravel #travelwithababy

"We’ve been outside of the US for less than a year and my stress levels have decreased by 80%," she writes in another post on Instagram.

In this clip, the family has popped on over to Italy for a visit, and a sweet old Italian man stops while passing by to smile and wave at the baby.

"When my baby cries I’m not afraid a stranger is gonna come and complain she’s being loud. Instead, they approach to see how they can help. When strangers approach I’m not afraid of what they’ll do but rather excited to see the interaction"

"This is the way it should be. We are social beings. This is the village. ... If you’re looking for a taste of what a child and family friendly society looks like, come to Italy."

There are a lot of things that make many other countries around the world, particularly in Europe, extremely appealing for families.

Kind people, and rude people, exist all over the world. Grumpy folks aren't unique to America. But some parts of the world just have better infrastructure for parents with young kids.

Places like Spain or Italy often have a slower way of life, more built-in time off for workers, better maternity and paternity leave, and childcare that is astronomically more affordable.

(In the United States, putting two or even just one child in full-time daycare so both parents can work costs about as much as a mortgage.)

@bravefamilytravel

we’ve been outside of the US for less than 2 months and my stress levels have decreased by 80%

Viewers and commenters love hearing about the family's journey, and have been quick to share their own stories of living and traveling abroad.

"In Singapore, the sweet Asian ladies took my baby out of my hands, a group of older women circled around her, and couldn’t believe she had blonde hair and blue eyes. It was absolutely such a sweet moment, and you could understand there was no threat."

"We hear a baby cry and we 1) Understand babies cry 2) Hope mum / dad isn't too stressed 3) we've all been there and 4) we remember our little ones"

"In italy we say "it takes a town to grow up a child". It's rare to see people not being kind to kids"

"You should visit Japan once. Babies are rare there because of population decline so they get such a celebrity status kinda love that its heart-rending."

@bravefamilytravel

Best decision ever 😂 says baby Atlas 👏

European countries aren't without their own problems. And believe it or not, there are lots of great communities and villages right here at home in America. You just have to put in a little extra effort to seek them out.

You may not feel comfortable letting your toddler loose in a busy city square here in America. But you can definitely cultivate a close group of family friends who live nearby, maybe even in walking distance.

And you can definitely be that person who offers to hold a crying baby or gives a reassuring smile to a tired parent who's worried they're bothering everyone.

You don't have to move halfway across the world to seek out a different way of life, or make a difference in other people's. But... it sure would be nice if America could make it a little easier sometimes.

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JPMorgan offered return-to-office perks that are remarkably similar to the show 'Severance'

The only thing missing was a "music dance experience."

Apple TV

Adam Scott and Tramell Tillman in Severance

While remote work has been a mainstay since the peak of the COVID-19 pandemic, more and more companies are attempting to mandate that employees return to the office, on a full or part-time basis, including one now-infamous effort from JPMorgan Chase. The company announced that as of March 2025, all employees were required to return to the office five days per week. Their CEO even ditched the policy that allowed employees to work-from-home two days per week.

To mark the occasion, welcome everyone back ( and perhaps twist the knife a bit deeper?) the United State's largest bank unveiled a plan for a massive $3 billion, 2.5 millions square foot tower on New York's famous Park Avenue—which would house 14,000 workers and feature state of the art architecture and technology—in addition to loading up its new corporate headquarters with perks to help employees transition back to office life.

Some of these "perks" were truly great and truly enticing. Others were... questionable, to say the least.

Grace Tallon on LinkedIn even noticed that some of the benefits of working in the JPMorgan Office seemed like they were yanked right out of one of the most popular current TV shows on the planet: Severance.

If you don't know it, Severance is a psychological thriller on Apple TV that doubles as a dark and biting satire of corporate office culture and capitalism. Employees at a mysterious company called Lumon are "severed" — meaning their brains, memories, and personalities are literally split in half. While at work, they are a different person and retain no memories when they leave the office every night. In return for their sacrifice and for hitting key milestones, the employees receive ludicrous rewards like short dance parties with their boss, melon parties with carved watermelons, and handfuls of balloons. Employees are also expected to marvel at bizarre pieces of art that line the hall, featuring stoic images of Lumon's revered (and more than a bit creepy) founders.

Conversely, JPMorgan's new tower boasted 19-restaurants with at-your-desk delivery, an Irish pub, and on-site physical therapy and yoga. But that's not all!

Tallon notes, however, that JPMorgan also tried to entice employees with things like "personalized climate" in rooms and offices, a "signature scent" that wafts through the halls and somehow reinforced the brand, and, get this, even a "corporate art collection" that celebrates the company's history and values. Be more on the nose next time, will you JPMorgan? That's to say nothing of design elements that support worker's circadian rhythms and coffee machines that learn your favorites over time.

"Let’s stop pretending this is about connecting and doing better work," she writes.

Read Tallon's full post below on the striking similarities:

Commenters agreed that the perks came off more than a little tone deaf.

While some folks defended the corporation for doing their best to make employees feel cared for and taken care of, others didn't quite see it that way, especially when they compared it to the perks of WFH life.

"The climate in my own home office is just right. Along with my own coffee, artwork, lighting (window wide open), and other perks and it cost me zero dollars to drive there and I don't have to wear shoes! Way out of touch," wrote Alix Z.

"Those perks sound more like a high-tech museum experience than actual employee benefits. Instead of a 'signature scent,' how about giving employees real reasons to feel good about coming to work?" said Diana Alayon.

 severance, linkedin, jp morgan, return to office, work, work from home, jobs, workplace, wfh jobs Some at-home perk simply can't be beat. Photo credit: Canva

"Working at home perks: My own candle collection, curated to suit my preferences, Coffee and tea on tap, from our favourite brands, Comfortable cushions and blankets to help regulate my temperature at my desk, A variety of lighting options, ranging from warm white lamps to 'the big light', Freedom to work anywhere I want, such as my office desk, sofa, kitchen table or a coffee shop near by, Personalised art with photos of family and pictures we enjoy, Working space decorated to my own specifications, Plenty of spaces nearby for fresh air and dog walks" wrote Eloise Todd in a mic-drop comment.

There are of course benefits to working together in-person with your colleagues. And sure, if you're required to be there, nothing offsets discomfort quite like delicious lunches and free yoga classes. But to take away even the option of occasionally working from home and duct-taping over it with an algorithm that tracks coffee orders and temperature preferences, and filling the halls with strange paintings that move when employees walk by? It kind of loses the thread, and it's exactly the kind of thinking that the creators of Severance are so good at skewering.

 severance, linkedin, jp morgan, retseverance, linkedin, jp morgan, return to office, work, work from home, jobs, workplace, wfh jobsurn to office, work, work from home, jobs, workplace, wfh jobs Mark (Adam Scott) at the infamous dance party scene in Severance.  media0.giphy.com  

According to Forbes, there are 6 distinct reason companies might push for a return to the office. One, corporate heads believe employees get more "immersed in the company’s values." Two, they think it's easier to monitor whether or not an employee is actually working. Three, to justify the cot of that expensive office space. Four, to foster "spontaneous collaboration." Five, to give new employees a chance to observe and interact with more seasoned worker. and six, to restore a sense of belonging within the company.

But of course, none of these things have anything to do with what people really want: Autonomy. That, in addition to fair pay, some level of flexibility, and good benefits. Perks are nice — even the kind of weird ones — but they can only go so far. It remains to be seen if companies that dictate back-to-the-office edicts are willing to follow through on the things that really matter. Please note how waffle parties did not make that list.

This article originally appeared in February

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Grandma offers wake-up call for grandparents who can't stop buying the grandkids presents

She's got the perfect solution for what to do when you just can't pass up a great deal at the store.

@morethangrand/TikTok
Gift giving should feel good for the giver and the receiver. But around the holidays, it can be a major cause of stress.

Parents and grandparents find themselves at odds frequently. It could be a disagreement over how much screen time the kids get, battles over grandma giving them too many sweets, or arguments around how often grandma and grandpa should be babysitting. Conflict in their relationships is almost a given, and navigating disagreements in a healthy, productive way is key for the relationship to evolve and grow.

One huge source of that conflict comes in the form of... stuff! All parents can relate to the sense of dread they feel at the sight of the grandparents arriving for a visit with a trunk-full of of presents. Toys, furniture, costumes, decor, you name it. And that's just on a regular Tuesday. Around the holidays, it can get even worse. It's not that they don't want their kids getting gifts, it's just all too much, especially when you live in a home with a finite amount of storage.

DeeDee Moore, a grandma behind the website More Than Grand, recently shared on the her TikTok account that “too much stuff” given from grandparents to their grandkids is one of the main sources of holiday frustration for parents.


 gift guide for grandparents, christmas gifts, in law at christmas, grandparents, parents, kids, family, love Moore says experience gifts, and spending quality time, are better options than trunk-loads of presents.  Photo by Christian Bowen on Unsplash  

“75% of the parents that we surveyed wished grandparents would respect their wishes about gifts,” she explained, noting that while there are myriad reasons why this would be the case, the most common one (and incidentally the one most "waved off” by the grandparents) is the lack of physical space to accommodate.

Now, you might be thinking: How much harm can it really do to give a kid a new card game or a baby doll? Certainly those don't take up that much room. But when Moore breaks down the math, it’s a bit hard to deny.

“Say your grandson has four other grandparents and four aunts and uncles. Each of these people get him one gift for a second birthday. That’s already nine gifts plus something for mom and dad. We’re up to 10,” she said.

“If all of those grandparents buy him three things, and two of the aunts get him a little extra something, that’s 22 presents for a 2 year old who would be just as happy with a box.”

Add in gifts from friends, and random gift-dumps from grandma when she's been on a hot-streak at the thrift store, and you've got a serious storage problem on your hands.

@morethangrand

Gifts should be a joy for both the giver and recipient, but at this time of year, they can end up being a source of conflict. Watch for a tip on how to channel your grandparent generosity! For more ways to navigate hotspots during upcoming holidays, make sure you are on our email list! Go to my bio to sign up! #grandparents #grandparent #CommunicationTips #GrandparentsLove #AdultChildren #NewGrandparent #newgrandma#newgrandparents #newgrandma #Grandparenting #grannytok #HealthyBoundaries #Boomer #EffectiveCommunication #GentleGrandparenting

Yikes, gotta admit that’s a lot. And that’s not counting the additional problems too much gift-giving can incite listed on the More Than Grand website, which included:

  • Undermining the parent’s values that they are trying to instill to their children
  • Damaging a child’s ability to use their imagination
  • Normalizing overconsumption
  • Teaching children to associate seeing grandma or grandpa with getting a gift, rather than focusing on the actual relationship
(Here's another one: Too many gifts steals Mom and Dad's thunder! Parents often put a lot of thought into picking out presents they know their kids will love, only for them to get buried in the avalanche of surprise presents.)

These are all good points, and yet, what to do with all those good intentions and a desire to spoil some precious little nugget? Luckily, Moore has the perfect fix.

“While your grandchildren are faced with getting too many gifts, many children are in the opposite situation. Take some of the things you bought to Toys for Tots or another organization that provides gifts for less fortunate families.”

This allows folks to step into the “true spirit of giving,” Moore concluded.

Viewers by and large seemed to agree, though many also noted how powerful experiential or future-building gifts could be, even if they're not as cute as toys or as fun to open.


@morethangrand

How often do we hear "it takes a village to raise a child'? Grandparents can be that village, but it can be hard to show up the way today's parents need. We created a digital grandparenting course that will teach you everything you need to know to be the village for your grandchild's parents. It's called New Grandparent Essentials, and you can find a link in my profile! It's the best investment you can make in your family as you become a grandparent! #grandparents #grandparent #CommunicationTips #GrandparentsLove #AdultChildren #NewGrandparent #newgrandparents #newgrandma #Grandparenting #grannytok #HealthyBoundaries #Boomer #EffectiveCommunication #GentleGrandparenting

“My in-laws opened up a college fund for both my kids. Instead of stuff they put more money in the account. I’m so grateful!” one person wrote.

Another added, “I am giving experiences and putting money in an account for future needs (college, 1st house, starting business, etc).”

In the vein, here are two other tips grandparents can use for intentional gift-giving…

First and foremost: open up a discussion with the parents. See if they need help with a big ticket item, find out which hobby or sport the child is interested in, ask what’s a definite “no.” this can save a lot of headaches for everyone.

"The gifts should surprise the grandkids, not their parents," as one commenter wrote on the video.

Second: prioritize memories over stuff. A trip to the zoo, an education membership, a ticket for two to the movies…these are often the gifts that truly keep on giving.

And grandparents, don’t forget: just because you’re honoring boundaries, it doesn't mean you have to pass up that sweet little something you see in the aisles. After all, shopping is fun, and it's even better when you find a great deal or a cool discovery. But it can easily go to a little one who could really use it.

For even more tip on all things grandparenting, give More Than Grand a follow here.

This article originally appeared last year. It has been updated.


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The 4 words that can keep conversation flowing forever, even between socially awkward people

You can keep seamlessly transitioning to more interesting topics.

via Canva/Photos

A couple talking over coffee.

Many people find making small talk to be an excruciating experience. They think it’s boring to talk with a stranger about the weather, sports, or weekend plans. They may also feel like they don’t have anything to contribute to the conversation, or they don’t understand the point of having one in the first place.

However, those who excel at making small talk have a tremendous advantage in their professional and romantic relationships, as well as in forming new friendships. Most importantly, small talk is a window to transition into medium talk or, eventually, deep, meaningful conversations. The problem is that many people get stuck in small talk, and things stall before progressing to something beneficial.

 conversation, small talk, conversation tips, communications tips, medium talk, reminder A man and woman chatting.via Canva/Photos

How to get better at small talk

The great thing is that, like anything, making small talk is a skill that we can all improve by learning some simple conversation techniques. One technique that is great for keeping a conversation going, like hitting a ball back and forth past a net in tennis, is a simple statement: It reminds me of…”

A redditor named IsaihLikesToConnect shared some great examples of how the phrase can be used to turn a mundane topic, such as the weather, into something much more fun.

Them: "It's been really rainy, huh?"

You:

Option 1 (Personal Story): "Yeah, it reminds me of a time I went on a run in the rain and nearly got hit by a car."

Option 2 (Music / Pop Culture): "It reminds me of every Adele song. When I'm driving, I feel like I'm in a music video."

Option 3 (Family): "It reminds me of my dad, he used to love playing with us in the rain as kids."

Option 4 (Thing you watched / World News): "It reminds me of this documentary I saw where they're trying to make it rain in the Sahara Desert.”

Option 5 (Place you lived): “It reminds me of when I lived in Australia, it barely ever rained there. I actually love this weather.”


 conversation, small talk, conversation tips, communications tips, medium talk, reminder Coworkers having a conversation.via Canva/Photos

You see in this example that using “It reminds me of…” opened up the conversation to five potential new and more exciting topics. The “You” in the story could have responded with, “Yeah, it sure is rainy,” and the conversation would have ended right there. But instead, branching off the topic of rain into something a bit deeper took the conversation to the next level. You get extra points if you can take the “reminds me of” into a topic that you assume the other person will be interested in.

 conversation, small talk, conversation tips, communications tips, medium talk, reminder Coworkers having a conversation.via Canva/Photos

What’s a polite way to change the topic in a conversation?

Using “this reminds me of…” is also a polite way to move the topics in another direction, especially when it's a topic that you don’t want to discuss or one that makes you feel a bit uncomfortable. Or, if it’s a situation where the other person is monologing on one topic for a very long time, this makes it easy to transition away from their diatribe.

Ultimately, the phrase is an excellent way for you to save the person you’re talking to from being stuck in the small talk rut as well. It shows you understand that when someone brings up the weather, they are merely getting things started with something both of you have in common. They probably don’t want to talk about the weather for 30 minutes, unless they are a meteorologist. “It reminds me of…” is an invitation to go a bit deeper and shows the other person that you’d like to learn more about them.

This article originally appeared in April.

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Optical illusion featuring creepy eye and color-changing tropical island is a total mind trip

Oh, how the eye plays tricks on us.

Reddit

Haven't had a classic creepy optical illusion in a while.

Optical illusions are always a fun way to learn about how our brains perceive the world—and how easily our eyes can be tricked.

One viral illusion going around, titled “This is black magic,” also happens to be giving perfect Summerween vibes—featuring a single solitary eye staring back at you and a very creepy narrated voice.

As you’ll see below, you, the viewer, are instructed to keep your gaze fixed on the eye in the center of the screen, in front of a tropical beach background with a “yellow sky and red sea.” Then…well…why don't you see for yourself first:

this is black magic
byu/SnooMemesjellies2323 inopticalillusions

As the voiceover explains, the color of the sky changes to have more “vibrant blues and greens.” Only, there were no blues and greens at all, when you go back and watch the video without staring at the eye, you see that the second image was actually black and white. DUN DUN DUN!!!!

As one viewer noted, "Watching it a second time and expecting the shift, it was even cooler. It swapped and I saw it in color, then saw the color fade to black and white.”

A few others couldn’t help but comment on the, ahem, interesting tone of the illusion overall.

"Why was the voice so creepy? I was anticipating a jump scare 😭," one person wrote.

So…is it really black magic? Obviously no. In fact, another viewer breaks down the science pretty darn well:

“Tldr: first image depletes chemical signals in your eye, so you see the exact opposite colors on the second image.

Your eye uses photoreceptors to create an image for the brain, by converting the light that lands on your retina (back of the eye) into chemical signals to represent color and bright/dark.

 optical illusion, reddit, color perception, color theory, color science, science, cool science A simple visual breakdown of eye anatomy.Photo credit: Canva

When you stare at an image without moving your eyes, that image becomes kind of ‘burned in’ temporarily to your retina, because the chemicals to send that specific image get depleted in the exact pattern of that image. In this example, the orange in the sky and water depletes whatever chemicals your photoreceptors use to send that orange to your brain wherever orange is in the image.

Then when you change to a black and white image, your photoreceptors only have the exact opposite chemicals left from what they need, so for a short time you'll see the exact opposite color of the primer image. In this example, the dark oranges turn to light tropical water blue and the light oranges turn to deep dark sky blue. Another easy way to see this is the clouds turn from black in the first image to white in the second.

An over simplified example would be like an ice cream machine that gives you either chocolate or vanilla. If everyone gets chocolate for a while, then after that you can only get vanilla until someone replenishes the chocolate."

Great explanation, but it was the ice cream metaphor that really resonated, amirite?

  - YouTube  www.youtube.com  

Bottom line: while there might not be any black magic used to create this video, it’s certainly a cool reminder of how magical our brains are.

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Experts explain why gracefully breaking up with a friend can sometimes be a healthy move

"The friends I have now are edited friends. And I picked them."

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Two friends hug. A friendship necklace breaks.

We so often talk about breakups in terms of romantic relationships and often forget the painful aspect of friendship splits. They happen and they can hurt. But what if we could reframe our thinking about them as, albeit hurtful, an actually positive opportunity to open up a little space for something that's a better fit?

There are times when an attempt to salvage a friendship is advised. Charley Burlock warns in an article "Should You Really Break Up with That Friend?" for Oprah Daily against the viral trend of cutting people off too quickly. "Opting not to work on—or even formally end—friendships has, in recent years, been widely rebranded as a wellness imperative: a means of 'protecting your peace,' 'respecting your self-worth,' or 'cutting out toxic people.'"

Burlock instead suggests kindness first. Citing author, podcaster, and 'friendship coach' Danielle Bayard Jackson, Burlock writes, "Rather than ghosting a friend when the going gets tough, make an effort to communicate with respect and kindness. The first line of friendship defense should always be a candid conversation, Jackson says—one free from therapy-speak and corporate buzzwords. 'If I've been holding your hair back in the bathroom, I know all your business. I cannot suddenly talk to you like HR—it’s cold, impersonal. And it feels really, really hurtful.'"

  Mel Robbins, Danielle Bayard Jackson  www.youtube.com  

And sometimes you just need to shift your expectations of the friendship. Burlock shares, "If after a conversation (or, ideally, a few), your friend is still not meeting your needs, it doesn’t necessarily mean the relationship is doomed. Rather than questioning whether a friend belongs in your life, it may be worth wondering if they belong in the role you have assigned them. If you have a friend who disappears when you’re struggling but who is a blast on a night out, you might want to find someone else to call when you need an emotional rock and reach out to her when booking a trip to Cancun."

That said, sometimes it's just time to move on. Maryjane Fahey, who operates the @gloriousbroads Instagram account, spoke for @flowspace about friendships, giving a wonderful spin on getting broken up with late in life. She shares, "Someone dumped me, a friend of 35 years. And she dumped me over Instagram with a message that was unclear. And it was so hard. I mean, that's hard—losing a girlfriend, is it not?" She turns to the audience, "Anybody lose a girlfriend? It's a $%^ch. So I didn't understand why this happened."

"And I was addicted to the podcast called Everything is Fine. And they happened to have a counselor talking about getting over women friendships. And she gave such a wonderful analysis: If you walk into a room and you see this woman, whom you had been friends with for 35 years, would you be attracted to her as you are now? And I realized, 'No, I wouldn't have been.'"

What she says next is key and involves the idea that we don't always get to choose our friends as children. But as adults, we do. "The friends I have now are edited friends and I picked them from all over. Their ages range. And yes, you absolutely can have friends, new friends—post 50, 60, 70 and 80!"

 friendship, school friends, playground, old friends Two school friends hug.   commons.wikimedia.org  

It's quite a popular topic on Reddit these days too. In the subreddit r/AskWomenOver30, someone asks, "Friendship breakups. Is it normal?" In part, this Redditor writes, "I decided I didn’t want the friendship anymore. I’ve realised as I’ve gotten older I’m less willing to tolerate this kind of BS and piss-taking. But I feel guilt and like I’m abnormal for cutting ties. Have others found they’ve broken up with / become more distant from friends as you head into your 30s?"

 friendship, broken, breaking up with friends, trust Kristen Wiig in a scene from Bridesmaids.   Giphy Apatow Productions 

There are over 100 comments. One writes emphatically, "First of all, I'm not sure this person was a friend in the first place, respectfully. Someone that talks down to you all the time and doesn't support you isn't someone to keep in your life, so kudos for doing the hard thing and cutting this person out!

Second, I've experienced friend breakups and also growing distant from friends as I've gotten older more as time went on. It isn't always a bad thing to have happen; most of the time it's because interests change, we move away from where we met, or something mundane like that. I want nothing but the best for those people and cherish the fond memories."

Another points out the popular notion of curating our friendships to keep only those who "spark joy" (in the words of Marie Kondo). "Yes this is normal. I'm starting to think my 30s is my Marie Kondo era for friendships and relationships. Less is more. Quality over quantity. Your tolerance level is not the same as it was a few years ago, let alone 10 years ago."

And this comment eloquently cuts to the chase: "My dad always told me, 'Don’t spend time with people who make you crazy.'"

 

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