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Education

She quit teaching, works at Costco, and has 'never been happier.' That says something.

Maggie Perkins' viral videos and unique perspective have ignited the conversation around teacher attrition.

Teacher turned Costco employee talking to camera

Maggie Perkins doesn't miss having a winter break.

Maggie Perkins loves teaching, loves teachers and loves students. In fact, she loves them so much that working on her Ph.D. in Educational Theory and Practice. Her research is focused on teacher attrition, examining why quality, experienced teachers quit the profession—something she understands all too well since she recently became one of them.

The former educator now works at Costco and she says she's never been happier. Her migraines are gone. Her anxiety has improved. She sleeps through the night. As an entry-level employee, she makes less money than she did teaching, but not enough less to make a difference in her financial situation. She goes home from work happy at the end of the day.

Perkins has been sharing the contrast in working conditions between the classroom and Costco on her TikTok channel and it is eye-opening, to say the least.


To be fair, Costco is known for employee satisfaction. They take good care of their people with solid wages and benefits, and as a result, they have an impressive 94% retention rate for employees who stay longer than a year. That's incredible for a retail business. And it's not just about their comparatively generous compensation package. Perkins has shared in several of her videos how she feels respected and valued as an employee at Costco—far more than she did as a teacher working in various schools, teaching various grades in two different states.

People often assume that the biggest reason teachers quit is inadequate pay, but compensation is just one piece of the teacher exodus puzzle. Perkins makes it clear that teachers should definitely be paid more, but attrition isn't just about money. It's often a result of burnout caused by a multitude of factors, including lack of time and support to do the job they are trained to do, the twisted way the teaching profession is viewed and valued by society and the pile-on of additional duties teachers are assigned to do besides teaching.

@millennialmsfrizz

Today I was on Varner & Co with 🦊. This is the full segment. It feels short, but they managed to squeeze me in between a study about it cheese causes nightmares and the woke 👮‍♀️ adding pants to a root beer mascot. It was my pleasure to make a contribution.

Let's look at the time element alone. Planning is a big part of teaching, especially if you're trying to meet individual students' learning needs, yet teachers are rarely given the amount of planning time they need. On top of that, the time they do have is often usurped by other things.

"Let's say you have a fight in your classroom," Perkins tells Upworthy. "Well, then you just lost 45 minutes of your planning because you're going to have to be in the front office doing documentation, calling people. You just lose your day. There's so many different ways to lose your whole day, and then you end up either taking work home or making hard choices about what to let go, like you're juggling glass and rubber balls and you have to figure out which ones are glass and which ones are rubber. Like, what can you let drop?"

@millennialmsfrizz

Tonight when I walked out of work, I felt happy. I felt happy because I enjoyed my work, my coworkers and felt good about my job. When I was a teacher I only felt good leaving work *because I was leaving* the building. Yes, of course, there were *things* I enjoyed about the job, but being a teacher was so much more than teaching, and the anxiety inducing parts of the job were shredding me. Education as a whole is an environment of scarcity. From the resources to the ways teachers are treated. Costco is run in a way that operates from a place of generosity and genuine care. It’s amazing to me that a multi billion dollar company can exude this for its members and employees but the education system cannot. #formerteacher #teacherquittok #costcotiktok #retailworker #exteachertiktok #formerteacher #scarcitymindset #costcodoesitagain

A big misconception some people have about teaching is that it's easier than other professions because you have long holiday breaks and summers off. Some even go so far as to use the word "cushy." Plenty of teachers have refuted that notion, showing how many hours they actually work outside of official work hours or how they have to work two jobs to not be living paycheck to paycheck.

"If you're coming at teachers being like, oh, you have a cushy job, then you work it," says Perkins. "If you think it's so soft and so cushy, it has so many amazing benefits, then come on over and work this job. More of us should be lining up for it."

"But if we have a teacher shortage, how can it be that cushy of a job?" she adds. The reality is that people who have never worked in a classroom have no idea how relentless and stressful it can be on multiple levels, even when you love teaching and love your students.

Here Perkins describes what it was like working a 7-day shift during the holidays instead of having that cushy winter break:

@millennialmsfrizz

I used to be a teacher and now I work at Costco. This is my first year not having a winter break. I do not miss it at all. My pace of my work life now is so much better, I am not sick or exhausted like I used to be when I was a teacher. When I was a teacher I used my winter break basically to recover and go into the next semester of just surviving. #f#formerteachert#teacherquittokc#costcotiktokr#retailworkere#exteachertiktokc#careertransitiont#teachersonbreak

Perkins points out that we don't actually have a teacher shortage, but rather a teacher exodus. There are plenty of qualified, credentialed teachers who have simply given up trying to make the career they love actually sustainable.

Many people have put forth suggestions for various school reforms, but those who have seen the problems from the inside know they are layered, widespread, systemic and deeply ingrained. Perkins tells Upworthy she believes the school system needs a complete overhaul.

"I think we will be forced into it," she says. "But I don't think that'll happen for at least 10 years. I think things are going to get much worse before they get better."

@millennialmsfrizz

If you are new to this account, you should know that the issues I discuss are things I’ve experienced at several schools, grade levels and in different states. These are systemic issues, and are getting worse, not better. But, welcome, I suppose, and I hope you feel seen, known and appreciated because you are. #teachersoftiktok #formerteacher #teacherquittok #educatedexit #KAYKissCountdown #educationcrisis #teachershortage

She says focusing more on teachers and students would help alleviate some of the "crash and burn" she sees coming, or perhaps even help prevent it. But some major changes would have to take place for that to happen.

"A teacher who has six class periods with 35 students in them? That person cannot possibly deliver quality instruction to all of those students all day. And then have one planning period to grade, plan, et cetera. It's just it's impossible."

She says reducing class sizes, increasing planning periods and eliminating extra duties such as carpool duty, hallway duty and other seemingly small things that chip away at a teacher's time are immediate changes that can and should be made. But school administration is often more focused on testing, data, and resources than on what students and teachers themselves need to create a healthy, sustainable learning environment.

Then there's the issue of how teachers are viewed. Outright disrespect is one thing teachers face, but even well-meaning people who think they are supporting teachers can contribute to the problem.

For instance, Perkins explained in a video that she doesn't call teachers "heroes" anymore because it's a loaded term that leads to a martyrdom mindset. After all, heroes fulfill the mission, no matter how hard it gets, right? Heroes are ready and willing to sacrifice it all for the cause. Most people who refer to teachers as "heroes" do so as a compliment, but when you really break down what that term means, it sets an expectation that teachers will do the job no matter how bad it gets, sacrificing themselves and their own well-being because their profession is a "noble" one. That's not just unfair; it's abusive.

@millennialmsfrizz

Teachers are called heros. Teaching is regarded as a noble profession, a higher calling. Teachers should be able to work in conditions that do not require heroic sacrifice. Teachers should be able to do their job in a normal way without suffering, sacrificing, defend for themselves etc. #teachersoftiktok #teacherquittok #teachersareheroes

"The thing that I most want to communicate in my videos is that teaching is not a 'noble profession.'" Perkins tells Upworthy. "It's a job, and people should be paid for the job that they do and respected for the work that they do, and that by attributing nobility to the profession, you assign to teachers this emotional labor of the whole culture, of the whole society."

"When we do that, we add to them additional responsibility above and beyond their actual jobs," she adds. "And then that allows people to degrade the profession by saying basically we pay you with emotion. Like we say, 'You're heroes!' and we get in the cycle of praising them for what they do, and then gaslighting them for what they fall short on. But what they're falling short on is stuff that was never their job in the first place."

Perkins also wants teachers to know that they have transferable skills and that they don't have to put up with a poor quality of life when they can find a higher one in a different profession.

"I see so many teachers like myself even feeling trapped or feeling limited, like teaching is the only thing we can do," she says. "And then when they go into other professions, they're wildly successful. They rise to the top in their career fields. They are good employees and they enjoy the quality of their life as well."

"I want to communicate to teachers—you're not stuck, you don't have to be afraid, your quality of life matters, and it's not selfish to transition your career, because a lot of teachers stay in it, too, because they don't want to feel like they're failing the students."

To hear more of Perkins' perspective on working at Costco and on what teaching can and should be, check out her TikTok channel @millennialmsfrizz.

guitar, learning a skill, neuroscience, music, exposure, passive exposure, gardening

A woman learning how to play guitar.

Learning a new skill, such as playing an instrument, gardening, or picking up a new language, takes a lot of time and practice, whether that means scale training, learning about native plants, or using flashcards to memorize new words. To improve through practice, you have to perform the task repeatedly and receive feedback so you know whether you’re doing it correctly. Is my pitch correct? Did my geraniums bloom? Is my pronunciation understandable?

However, a new study by researchers at the Institute of Neuroscience at the University of Oregon shows that you can speed up these processes by adding a third element to practice and feedback: passive exposure. The good news is that passive exposure requires minimal effort and is enjoyable.


"Active learning of a... task requires both expending effort to perform the task and having access to feedback about task performance," the study authors explained. "Passive exposure to sensory stimuli, on the other hand, is relatively effortless and does not require feedback about performance."


woman reading, woman book, young woman, studying, new skills A woman reading a book.via Canva/Photos

How to pick up new skills faster?

So, if you’re learning to play the blues on guitar, listen to plenty of Howlin’ Wolf or Robert Johnson throughout the day. If you’re learning to cook, keep the Food Network on TV in the background to absorb some great culinary advice. Learning to garden? Take the time to notice the flora and fauna in your neighborhood or make frequent trips to your local botanical garden.

If you’re learning a new language, watch plenty of TV and films in the language you are learning. The scientists add that auditory learning is especially helpful, so listen to plenty of audiobooks or podcasts on the subject you’re learning about.

But, of course, you also have to be actively learning the skill as well by practicing your guitar for the recommended hours each day or by taking a class in languages. Passive exposure won't do the work for you, but it's a fantastic way to pick up things more quickly. Further, passive exposure keeps the new skill you're learning top-of-mind, so you're probably more likely to actively practice it.

What is passive exposure?

Researchers discovered the tremendous benefits of passive exposure after studying a group of mice. They trained them to find water by using various sounds to give positive or negative feedback, like playing a game of “hot or cold.” Some mice were passively exposed to these sounds when they weren't looking for water. Those who received this additional passive exposure and those who received active training learned to find the water reward more quickly.

gardening, woman gardening, gardening shears, leaning gardening, weeds A woman tending to her garden.via Canva/Photos


“Our results suggest that, in mice and in humans, a given performance threshold can be achieved with relatively less effort by combining low-effort passive exposure with active training,” James Murray, a neuroscientist who led the study, told University of Oregon News. “This insight could be helpful for humans learning an instrument or a second language, though more work will be needed to better understand how this applies to more complex tasks and how to optimize training schedules that combine passive exposure with active training.”

The one drawback to this study was that it was conducted on mice, not humans. However, recent studies on humans have found similar results, such as in sports. If you visualize yourself excelling at the sport or mentally rehearse a practice routine, it can positively affect your actual performance. Showing, once again, that when it comes to picking up a new skill, exposure is key.

The great news about the story is that, in addition to giving people a new way to approach learning, it’s an excuse for us to enjoy the things we love even more. If you enjoy listening to blues music so much that you decided to learn for yourself, it’s another reason to make it an even more significant part of your life.

- YouTube www.youtube.com

This article originally appeared last year.

Joy

Woman's silly typo in a philosophical post is bringing thousands of people unexpected, pure joy

Sometimes one tiny error can shift the entire meaning of a sentence.

typos, grammar, errors, writing, texting, comma
Photo credit: Canva

Left: A woman typing on a laptop. Right: A closeup of the word "Grammar."

Sometimes one tiny error can shift the entire meaning of a sentence. Perhaps someone tries to sign off an email with "Take care," but instead writes "Cake care," leaving you wondering whether you somehow missed receiving a delicious pastry (or, more importantly, the instructions on how to "care" for it).

For Threads user Maureenmzobe, merely adding a single letter turned what could have been a profound question into a ridiculous one. They asked, "You are in a comma, you wake up it's 2040. What are you Googling first?"


Threads, punctuation, spelling, commas, coma, typos A person on Threads makes a typo.Photo credit: Threads/@maureenmzobe

Obviously, the OP meant to write "coma" (we're assuming), but the happy accident led to more than 3,100 hilarious responses. As you might guess, many of those answers are punctuation-related.

One Threader joked, "Better than waking up in a colon, I suppose."

Another added a much more poetic answer:

"I woke up with a comma,
felt a pause in my head,
tripped over a semicolon
before getting out of bed.
I googled an apostrophe,
ate breakfast with a dash,
spilled tea on a question mark,
now my kitchen's an exclamation crash.
I spoke in quotation marks,
whispered softly in italics,
shouted once in capital letters
when my thumb remained static.
My words ran on like a sentence
that clearly should have stopped,
but I missed the full stop,
so the meaning was sort of lost."

This commenter had further questions: "Am I in an Oxford comma, or just a regular comma? Context matters here."

Of course, one Threader had to point out the obvious:

"First, I'd Google: 'difference between comma and coma — and how long I've apparently been unconscious.' Because if I've been in a comma since 2025, I'm less worried about the future and more concerned about who punctuated my life so aggressively.
Did I pause…
take a breath…
or has existence just been one long, unnecessary clause?
Either way, I'm searching for: 'how to end a 15-year comma — semicolon acceptable?'"

And some answers were just funny: "At least be grateful you didn't come to a full stop."

This person included a little wordplay: "I came here for the commas and they did not disaperiod."

The truth, of course, is these tiny flubs can happen to anyone. In a Reddit post titled "Funniest typos/mistakes you've caught yourself making?" the OP admits, "So, we're all human and we're not perfect. We all make typos and errors every now and again, and some of them can change the meaning of a sentence entirely. What's your funniest one?"

They go on to describe their most embarrassing editorial mistake: "I'm currently editing a chapter, and instead of 'Shannon's eyes went wide and she slid away a few inches,' I wrote 'Shannon's eyes went wide and slid away a few inches.' It's one pronoun. And yet without it, her eyes slide off her face. It made me giggle."

The post received 85 comments, most of them from people sharing their own unfortunate typos.

A Redditor shared, "I tried to type 'memento' one time and ended up getting autocorrected to 'Meme and toad' for some odd reason. Looking back I probably threw in a space on accident." Luckily, this person truly enjoyed the outcome: "Meme and Toad are the best of friends."

Popular

I showed my Gen Z kids 'Dead Poets Society' and their angry reactions to it floored me

"Inspiring" apparently means different things to Gen X and Gen Z.

Robin Williams in Dead Poets Society, gen x and gen z differences

Robin Williams played inspiring English teacher John Keating in "Dead Poets Society."

As a Gen X parent of Gen Z teens and young adults, I'm used to cringing at things from 80s and 90s movies that haven't aged well. However, a beloved film from my youth that I thought they'd love, "Dead Poets Society," sparked some unexpectedly negative responses in my kids, shining a spotlight on generational differences I didn't even know existed.

I probably watched "Dead Poets Society" a dozen or more times as a teen and young adult, always finding it aesthetically beautiful, tragically sad, and profoundly inspiring. That film was one of the reasons I decided to become an English teacher, inspired as I was by Robin Williams' portrayal of the passionately unconventional English teacher, John Keating.


The way Mr. Keating shared his love of beauty and poetry with a class of high school boys at a stuffy prep school, encouraging them to "seize the day" and "suck all the marrow out of life," hit me right in my idealistic youthful heart. And when those boys stood up on their desks for him at the end of the film, defying the headmaster who held their futures in his hands? What a moving moment of triumph and support.

My Gen Z kids, however, saw the ending differently. They did love the feel of the film, which I expected with its warm, cozy, comforting vibe (at least up until the last 20 minutes or so). They loved Mr. Keating, because how can you not? But when the movie ended, I was taken aback hearing "That was terrible!" and "Why would you traumatize me like that?" before they also admitted, "But it was so gooood!"

- YouTube youtu.be

The traumatize part I actually get—I'd forgotten just how incredibly heavy the film gets all of a sudden. (A caveat I feel the need to add here: Gen Z uses the word "traumatize" not in a clinical sense but as an exaggerative term for being hit unexpectedly by something sad or disturbing. They know they weren't literally traumatized by the movie.)

But in discussing it further, I discovered three main generational differences that impacted my kids' "Dead Poets Society" viewing experience and what they took away from it.

1) Gen Z sees inspiring change through a systemic lens, not an individual one

The first thing my 20-year-old said when the credits rolled was, "What? That's terrible! Nothing changed! He got fired and the school is still run by a bunch of stodgy old white men forcing everyone to conform!" My immediate response was, "Yeah, but he changed those boys' individual lives, didn't he? He helped broaden their minds and see the world differently."

 o captain my captain, dead poets society Individual impact isn't as inspiring to Gen Z as it was to Gen X. Giphy

I realized that Gen X youth valued individuals going against the old, outdated system and doing their own thing, whereas Gen Z values the dismantling of the system itself. For Gen X, Mr. Keating and the boys taking a stand was inspiring, but the fact that it didn't actually change anything outside of their own individual experiences stuck like a needle in my Gen Z kids' craw.

2) Gen Z isn't accustomed to being blindsided by tragic storylines with no warning

To be fair, I did tell them there was "a sad part" before the movie started. But I'd forgotten how deeply devastating the last part of the movie was, so my daughter's "Why would you do that to me?!" was somewhat warranted. "I thought maybe a dog would die or something!" she said. No one really expected one of the main characters to die by suicide and the beloved teacher protagonist to be blamed for his death, but I'd somehow minimized the tragedy of it all in my memory so my "sad part" warning was a little insufficient.

But also to be fair, Gen X youth never got any such warnings—we were just blindsided by tragic plot twists all the time. As kids, we cheered on Atreyu trying to save his horse from the swamp in "The Neverending Story" only to watch him drown. Adults showed us "Watership Down" thinking it would be a cute little animated film about bunnies. We were slapped in the face by the tragic child death in "My Girl," which was marketed as a sweet coming of age movie.

Gen Z was raised in the era of trigger warnings and trauma-informed practices, while Gen X kids watched a teacher die on live TV in our classrooms with zero follow-up on how we were processing it. Those differences became apparent real quick at the end of this movie.


3) Gen Z fixates on boundary-crossing behavior that Gen X either overlooked or saw as more nuanced

The other reaction I wasn't expecting was the utter disdain my girls showed for Knox Overstreet, the sweet-but-over-eager character who fell for the football player's cheerleader girlfriend. His boundary-crossing attempts to woo her were always cringe, but for Gen X, cringe behavior in the name of love was generally either overlooked, tolerated, or sometimes even celebrated. (Standing on a girl's lawn in the middle of the night holding a full-volume stereo over your head was peak romance for Gen X, remember.) For Gen Z, the only thing worse than cringe is predatory behavior, which Knox's obsessiveness and pushiness could arguably be seen as. My own young Gen X lens saw Knox and said, "That's a bit much, dude. Take it down a notch or three." My Gen Z daughters' lens said, "That guy's a total creepo. She needs to run far the other way."

run, red flag behavior Gen Z is much more black and white about behaviors than previous generations. Giphy Red Flag Run GIF by BuzzFeed

On one hand, I was proud of them for recognizing red flag behaviors and calling them out. On the other hand, I saw how little room there is for nuance in their perceptions, which was…interesting.

To be clear, I don't think my Gen Z kids' reactions to "Dead Poets Society" are wrong; they're just different than mine were at their age. We're usually on the same page when it comes to these kinds of analyses, so seeing them have a drastically different reaction to something I loved at their age was really something. Now I'm wondering what other favorite movies from my youth I should show them to see if they view those differently as well—hopefully without "traumatizing" them too much with the experience.

This article originally appeared in January.

Immigration

2,000 people sing directly to ICE agents in Minneapolis, beautifully imploring them to come together

The "singing resistance" choir shows the power of incorporating art into peaceful protests.

singing resistance, singing protest, ice protest, minneapolis, non-violent resistance

The "singing resistance" is growing in Minneapolis and beyond.

From the night the Sons of Liberty dumped hundreds of chests of tea into Boston Harbor in 1773, Americans have protested government policies and actions they disagree with in various ways. Some have staged peaceful sit-ins, while others have rioted in rage. Millions have marched to make their voices heard, carrying signs and chanting slogans that express their displeasure with what's happening in their country.

But occasionally, a unique form of protest stands out. Several weeks into the ICE operation in Minneapolis, in which the federal government sent 2,000+ agents and officers to carry out "the largest immigration operation ever," and which has led to disruptions at schools, conflict between federal agents and the community, and the killing of U.S. citizens, thousands of Minnesota residents have taken to the streets in protest. Among them is a growing band of singers who, instead of calling out the government with shouting and chants, are calling in the federal agents with songs and signs, inviting them to join the resistance.


It's a different approach to take, tapping into the humanity of individual agents instead of confronting the government as a whole. But 2,000 people have added their voices to the "singing resistance," forming a massive choir. They gather at a church to practice their songs, then take their message to the places where ICE agents are staying, singing:

We walk the same ground

We've been torn apart

Put down your weapons

And sing your part


The effect of combining the arts with our constitutional right to peacefully assemble is powerful, and the signs the singing resisters are holding are, too: "Please ICE agents. Join Us." "Love > Fear," "Choose Humanity. Quit ICE." "Stop the Violence." "We Are Family." "Be the hero that walks away." "The time is always right to do what is right." "You, too, are here to love and be loved."

The Singing Resistance Instagram account shared the heart of the message the singers hope to send to ICE agents, imploring them to quit their jobs and join "the side of love and humanity":

"Under federal occupation, Minneapolis has been going through immense pain, rage, and grief. But when they come at us with violence, we fight back with love. We still have space in our hearts for ICE agents who are willing to walk away from the path of violence and take accountability for harm they’ve caused. We paid ICE agents a visit today to call them home."

Another song they sang says:

It’s okay to change your mind
Show us your courage
Leave this behind
It’s okay to change your mind
And you can join us
Join us here anytime

The idea of inviting agents and officers to join a resistance movement isn't without precedent. Singing resistance organizers shared that they were inspired by the Otpor! civil resistance that helped overthrow Serbian dictator Slobodan Milosevic in 2000. Otpor! members would chant, "You may not join us today, but you can join us tomorrow," when they were arrested by the police. Ultimately, when hundreds of thousands marched on Belgrade, most of the police and military joined the opposition and refused to follow Milosevic's orders to fire on the protesters.

According to an Ipsos poll conducted on January 30 and 31, 2026, a full 62 percent of U.S. adults feel ICE’s actions go too far, compared to 13 percent who think they don't go far enough and 23 percent who said it was about right. That disapproval is four points higher than the week before, indicating that the ICE operations are unpopular with Americans, even those who normally support the Trump administration's policies.

People from all over the United States shared words of encouragement for the choir, expressing how moved they are by the singing resistance:

"I love how the singing is both dissent/resistance and it feeds hope and replenishes energy. It is so soul-nourishing. I’d love to be a part of this! Sending my love and care to you all from Maryland as a MN born and raised woman. Sing on!!!"

"I think the music resistance is very effective and moving. Thank you for all your fine efforts from way over here in upstate New York. Thank you for standing up for all of us in the country."

"We are one chord, beautiful beautiful voices thank you so much for sharing Minnesota. I’m a musician and singer here in Eugene, Or, and when I hear hundreds of you singing like that, I cannot tell you how healing it is for me how powerful and indeed how brave."

"I have a song in my heart again! After weeks of crying crying in despair, thank you for singing us into a hopeful future of healing, reconciliation, and RESISTANCE❤️

"This is more revolutionary than so many know."

"Prince left his legacy forever. Minneapolis strong."

"This reminds me of Estonia's singing revolution and I'm here for it. ❤️❤️"

The Singing Resistance account has shared a toolkit and songbook and organized a virtual training on how to organize a local singing resistance choir for those interested in doing something similar.

The right to peacefully assemble and voice our disagreement with our government is guaranteed in the Constitution, and there are many creative ways to do it. When people are singing in harmony in the street, it not only gets attention, but it's hard to criticize or confront that kind of peaceful protest. (Imagine the optics of trying to break up a peacefully singing crowd.) Will the choir's earworms calling to their humanity really make a difference with any ICE agents in Minneapolis? Time will tell. In the meantime, people around the world are hearing them loud and clear and joining the harmonious chorus of non-violent resistance.

social skills, michael baker, conversation tips, small talk, small talk tips, social science, how to be social, making friends

Two men having a conversation

You probably heard plenty of people say they hate small talk. You might even consider yourself someone who loathes it. One of the most common arguments against small talk is that it’s “superficial,” energy draining, and doesn’t foster a real human connection.

Well, according to British etiquette enthusiast and content creator on all things conversation-related (not to mention author) Michael Baker, “You don’t hate small talk. You’re just terrible at it.”


In an Instagram post, Baker argued that those who see small talk as “beneath them” are failing to see it as a “test” (for compatibility, connection, shared values, etc.), which will inevitably lead to getting “left out.”

He then gave five tips to help folks shift that mindset and make small talk work for them. Honestly, even those who aren’t adamantly against small talk might find themselves guilty of some of these mistakes and could benefit from making these tweaks.

five, five fingers, five tips, man, advice, help Young man holds up his hand to show five.Photo credit: Canva

#1 Avoid answering questions too literally

Perhaps in an attempt to be authentic, or to avoid taking up all the oxygen in the room, people might use responses that are accurate and succinct, but not exactly conversational. This doesn’t give the other person anything to “bounce off of,” which is what’s really being asked for.

To remedy this, Baker suggests to always give a real response plus a “hook.” He gave the example of saying “Mostly work, but I’m trying to teach myself how to play guitar. Chaos!” when asked, “What have you been up to?” rather than saying “Not much, just working.”

#2 Don’t ask questions like it’s a job interview

Baker says ask “open-ended, low-stakes” questions like “what’s keeping you busy outside of work?” to invite a sense of “play.” Conversely, asking things like “where are you from?” invites a sense of formality, pressuring people to “perform.”

social skills, michael baker, conversation tips, small talk, small talk tips, social science, how to be social, making friends Two women having a conversation at a coffee shop. Photo credit: Canva

#3 Allow depth to come in naturally

Since the thought of shallow conversation might seem uncomfortable, those who are small talk-averse might find themselves immediately asking overarching existential questions like, “What drives you?” Baker argues that one must trust that “shallow comes before depth,” and must be used as a “warm-up act.” Otherwise, people are put on the spot unnecessarily, which obviously doesn't foster connection.

#4 Initiate conversation instead of only speaking when spoken to

What may seem like “politeness” can come across as unapproachable. The good thing is: this is an opportunity for some “low-pressure,” even “lightly self-deprecating” observations. Baker used the example of saying, “That snack table’s dangerously close to me.”

#5 Treat small talk as the “main event”

social skills, michael baker, conversation tips, small talk, small talk tips, social science, how to be social, making friends Two women talking as the leave a yoga classPhoto credit: Canva

This might be the biggest tip of all. Here, Baker reminds us that for the majority of human interaction, small talk is the way in, and therefore should be “respected.” Virtually no one is going to say, “Let’s network,” but odds are they’ll easily comment on the weather. It’s our job to learn what they’re really saying with this mundane phrase.

Because, at the end of the day, “if you keep waiting for ‘real’ conversation, you’ll miss all the real opportunities,” Baker writes.

After reading these tips, you very well might still loathe the idea of small talk, which is totally fine. It doesn’t have to be for everyone, nor should it. But what Baker really presents here is a way to reflect on whether or not our attitudes are preventing us from making valuable connections. If we suspect that might be the case, then it could be worth experimenting with some of these tools.

If you’d like even more tips, Baker has a guide aptly titled Let’s Not Make It Weird, which you can check out here.