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Woman realizes she comes from a 'recreational argument' family and so many people feel seen

Understanding this phenomenon is so helpful, no matter how you feel about debate vs. conflict.

Photo credit: Canva

Do you come from a recreational argument family?

Have you ever noticed that some families can get into heated arguments—raised voices, vehement disagreement, rhetorical takedowns—and then act as if no actual conflict has taken place? If you come from a totally-conflict-avoidant or a genuinely-conflict-ridden family, such passionate debates might feel uncomfortable. If you come from a "recreational argument" family, it's just what people do when they get together.

A woman's realization that she grew up in the latter kind of family has prompted discussions about the whole idea and has people from all kinds of backgrounds feeling seen. Emmaline (@emmaleendryer) shared in a video, "As someone who came from a recreational argument family…I just learned the term "recreational argument"—which I thought we were all doing—and I owe a lot of people a lot of apologies."

Why does she owe some apologies? Because if you come from a recreational argument family, where argument is treated as a form of entertainment and debate is seen as an enjoyable activity like playing cornhole, you might assume that's the norm for everyone. And if you assume it's normal, you might argue with someone just because, or perhaps even to try to bond with them, and wind up surprised when they don't respond the way you expect them to. Either the person doesn't volley with you at all and just seems confused, or they engage in the debate but leave genuinely upset by the interaction.

A Reddit post explained the phenomenon like this:

"There are some people who 'argue' for fun. Flexing their rhetorical skills over something of no real-life consequence is a nice way to pass an afternoon. My In-Laws are like this. My father-in-law will argue with anyone about literally anything because to him, this is a fun game and he'd like to play with you, so Thanksgiving and Passover are always somewhat fraught holidays. I suspect a number of people online who are 'trolling' aren't actually trolling, but engaging in what they see as a Perfectly Normal Invitation to play.

"There are about the same number of people, in my experience, that find being in the general proximity of other people arguing the most agitating bullsh_t imaginable. Some people experience this as extreme, irrational annoyance, like people with misophonia when they hear chewing, and for some people the clinical meaning of the term 'Triggered' is applicable here because disagreements will, genuinely, trigger major psychological distress. Often, the more pointless and trivial the argument, the more agitating it is.

"The majority of people are somewhere in the middle of these extremes, and would like everyone else to mind their manners."

arguing, recreational argument, debate, discussion, mental exercise Some people love to argue for fun, others hate it. Giphy

To be clear, recreational arguing isn't fighting. There's no actual conflict taking place, but for those who are used to only experiencing debates or disagreements as fights, a passionate debate can feel like—and therefore be mistaken for—real conflict.

People in the comments clearly fell into different camps, further elucidating the point. Those who came from recreational argument families discussed the enjoyment they get out of arguing:

"It’s fun to debate vigorously."

"What’s the point in having a brain if you aren’t going to use it? I could argue about literally anything because it’s fun to really think about sh_t. I don’t understand how you can enjoy life without a little recreational argument tbh."

@thelivstorygoes

gotta go write some apologies hold on #recreationalarguing #familydynamics #roastfest #siblings #highcortisol

"I love recreational arguing. Growing up my siblings and I were constantly like we’re not fighting — this is just how we talk."

"Why are you arguing??' Bro I thought this was just a conversation?"

"I have never heard the term recreational arguing before but this is the perfect explanation for why I enjoy a good debate and other people hate me for it 😂."

"I married outside of the recreational argument community. I love him but it’s tough."

"I come from a playful roasting family and i for sure accidentally bullied some kids in elementary school that I thought I was friends with."

However, those who didn't grow up with that normalized explained how uncomfortable it is to be around:

"It’s so stressful for someone who does not do recreational arguing. 😭"

"YEP I go into full fight or flight every single time. It’s so emotionally taxing for me to even witness it!"

recreational argument, debate, discussion, time out, calm down Arguments are stressful for some people, even when they're fun for others. Giphy GIF by 5A5Bseries

"Yep my husband and father in law discuss politics and religion regularly and energetically. they get so riled up sometimes and I just hide in my room. I don't do raised voices well, even when I know they aren't mad, they are just loud talkers. 😅"

"Cannot emphasize enough how much I DESPISE recreational arguing and debates. Literally hell on earth to be in a group of people like that."

And then there were the people who came from one kind of family but felt like they belonged in another:

"i grew up in a household where people just did not talk to each other. The first time i spent time with a recreational argument family it was like i was freed from a cage. I love it. i love talking and thinking and exploring and learning."

"Try being a recreational arguer in a family where people argue argue. I just wanna have a nice fun disagreement but now everyone is mad."

recreational argument, debate, discussion, conversation, discourse, fighting There can sometimes be a fine line between debating and fighting.Photo credit: Canva

"I yearn to be a recreational argument family so I married into one… visiting my own family I often forget & get labeled argumentative… like yeah I’m trying to have stimulation conversation here."

"What is it called when your family tries to be a recreational argument family but it almost always blows up into real fights? 😭😭"

Emmaline's admission that she might owe some apologies highlights the importance of understanding these different perspectives. If we assume all people view passionate discussions the way we do, we risk creating actual conflict or at the very least some uncomfortable feelings. When we listen to different people's perspectives like those shared in the comments of Emmaline's video, it's easier to see when it may not be the right time—or the right person—to engage in a debate, especially if it's just for fun.

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Grandma offers wake-up call for grandparents who can't stop buying the grandkids presents

She's got the perfect solution for what to do when you just can't pass up a great deal at the store.

@morethangrand/TikTok
Gift giving should feel good for the giver and the receiver. But around the holidays, it can be a major cause of stress.

Parents and grandparents find themselves at odds frequently. It could be a disagreement over how much screen time the kids get, battles over grandma giving them too many sweets, or arguments around how often grandma and grandpa should be babysitting. Conflict in their relationships is almost a given, and navigating disagreements in a healthy, productive way is key for the relationship to evolve and grow.

One huge source of that conflict comes in the form of... stuff! All parents can relate to the sense of dread they feel at the sight of the grandparents arriving for a visit with a trunk-full of of presents. Toys, furniture, costumes, decor, you name it. And that's just on a regular Tuesday. Around the holidays, it can get even worse. It's not that they don't want their kids getting gifts, it's just all too much, especially when you live in a home with a finite amount of storage.

DeeDee Moore, a grandma behind the website More Than Grand, recently shared on the her TikTok account that “too much stuff” given from grandparents to their grandkids is one of the main sources of holiday frustration for parents.


gift guide for grandparents, christmas gifts, in law at christmas, grandparents, parents, kids, family, love Moore says experience gifts, and spending quality time, are better options than trunk-loads of presents. Photo by Christian Bowen on Unsplash

“75% of the parents that we surveyed wished grandparents would respect their wishes about gifts,” she explained, noting that while there are myriad reasons why this would be the case, the most common one (and incidentally the one most "waved off” by the grandparents) is the lack of physical space to accommodate.

Now, you might be thinking: How much harm can it really do to give a kid a new card game or a baby doll? Certainly those don't take up that much room. But when Moore breaks down the math, it’s a bit hard to deny.

“Say your grandson has four other grandparents and four aunts and uncles. Each of these people get him one gift for a second birthday. That’s already nine gifts plus something for mom and dad. We’re up to 10,” she said.

“If all of those grandparents buy him three things, and two of the aunts get him a little extra something, that’s 22 presents for a 2 year old who would be just as happy with a box.”

Add in gifts from friends, and random gift-dumps from grandma when she's been on a hot-streak at the thrift store, and you've got a serious storage problem on your hands.

@morethangrand

Gifts should be a joy for both the giver and recipient, but at this time of year, they can end up being a source of conflict. Watch for a tip on how to channel your grandparent generosity! For more ways to navigate hotspots during upcoming holidays, make sure you are on our email list! Go to my bio to sign up! #grandparents #grandparent #CommunicationTips #GrandparentsLove #AdultChildren #NewGrandparent #newgrandma#newgrandparents #newgrandma #Grandparenting #grannytok #HealthyBoundaries #Boomer #EffectiveCommunication #GentleGrandparenting

Yikes, gotta admit that’s a lot. And that’s not counting the additional problems too much gift-giving can incite listed on the More Than Grand website, which included:

  • Undermining the parent’s values that they are trying to instill to their children
  • Damaging a child’s ability to use their imagination
  • Normalizing overconsumption
  • Teaching children to associate seeing grandma or grandpa with getting a gift, rather than focusing on the actual relationship
(Here's another one: Too many gifts steals Mom and Dad's thunder! Parents often put a lot of thought into picking out presents they know their kids will love, only for them to get buried in the avalanche of surprise presents.)

These are all good points, and yet, what to do with all those good intentions and a desire to spoil some precious little nugget? Luckily, Moore has the perfect fix.

“While your grandchildren are faced with getting too many gifts, many children are in the opposite situation. Take some of the things you bought to Toys for Tots or another organization that provides gifts for less fortunate families.”

This allows folks to step into the “true spirit of giving,” Moore concluded.

Viewers by and large seemed to agree, though many also noted how powerful experiential or future-building gifts could be, even if they're not as cute as toys or as fun to open.


@morethangrand

How often do we hear "it takes a village to raise a child'? Grandparents can be that village, but it can be hard to show up the way today's parents need. We created a digital grandparenting course that will teach you everything you need to know to be the village for your grandchild's parents. It's called New Grandparent Essentials, and you can find a link in my profile! It's the best investment you can make in your family as you become a grandparent! #grandparents #grandparent #CommunicationTips #GrandparentsLove #AdultChildren #NewGrandparent #newgrandparents #newgrandma #Grandparenting #grannytok #HealthyBoundaries #Boomer #EffectiveCommunication #GentleGrandparenting

“My in-laws opened up a college fund for both my kids. Instead of stuff they put more money in the account. I’m so grateful!” one person wrote.

Another added, “I am giving experiences and putting money in an account for future needs (college, 1st house, starting business, etc).”

In the vein, here are two other tips grandparents can use for intentional gift-giving…

First and foremost: open up a discussion with the parents. See if they need help with a big ticket item, find out which hobby or sport the child is interested in, ask what’s a definite “no.” this can save a lot of headaches for everyone.

"The gifts should surprise the grandkids, not their parents," as one commenter wrote on the video.

Second: prioritize memories over stuff. A trip to the zoo, an education membership, a ticket for two to the movies…these are often the gifts that truly keep on giving.

And grandparents, don’t forget: just because you’re honoring boundaries, it doesn't mean you have to pass up that sweet little something you see in the aisles. After all, shopping is fun, and it's even better when you find a great deal or a cool discovery. But it can easily go to a little one who could really use it.

For even more tip on all things grandparenting, give More Than Grand a follow here.

This article originally appeared last year. It has been updated.


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Parents are sick and tired of explaining why they 'never want to bring the kids over' to visit

Our kids are probably going to hurt your house and themselves.

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Fed up parents explain why they 'never want to bring the kids over' to visit

It's a good news/bad news situation for parents of young kids. The good news? Everyone wants to spend time with the kids! Grandparents, aunts and uncles, friends. They all want a relationship and lots of special moments with the little ones. It's why people assume if you have family nearby that you're "so lucky," and that you're overrun with free babysitting offers. Ha! If only.

The bad news comes down to one phrase: "When are you bringing them over?" Parents have been frustrated by the expectations of orchestrating stressful visits for generations — loading the kids in a car or on an airplane only to spend hours chasing them around in an un-baby-proofed environment and watching routines go to hell.

Now they're sounding off on social media and airing their grievances.

Why visiting grandparents and other relatives is so challenging for parents

A mom recently took to Reddit to vent about everyone in her life wanting her to "bring the kids to them."

"My parents live 30 mins away and always bug me about not coming to visit them," she writes. They constantly ask, "Why don't you bring our granddaughter to come see us?"

The post struck a nerve with parents, who chimed in with hundreds of passionate comments. The fascinating discussion highlights a few things that make arranging visits with young kids a potential nightmare for parents.

Grandparents' houses are rarely childproofed

Grandparents love their breakable decor! Ceramic doo-dads, glass vases everywhere. They can't get enough. In fact, they like to dedicate massive pieces of furniture only to housing their fine china, which they never use, but which is also extremely valuable and sentimental.

And while they should be able to decorate their house however they see fit (they've earned the right!) that doesn't make it a good environment for toddlers and babies.


parents, parenting, moms, dads, grandparents, millennial grandparents, gen x, boomers, grandparent conflict, grandma, grandpa The breakable decor found in every grandparents' house ozalee.fr/Flickr

"Last week was the last straw, I took my daughter to my parents and of course she went EVERYWHERE! flooded their toilet, broke a vase, and tried multiple times to climb their furniture," the Reddit mom writes.

Parents in a foreign environment are on constant safety duty and can rarely sit down

Let's be honest. Sometimes these "visits" are hardly worth the effort. After all, it's hard to get much catch up time when you're dutifully chasing your kid around.

"They don’t understand that my 3 yo ... is absolutely wild," writes another user in the thread. "She has no self preservation and nothing we do works. She doesn’t listen, she throws, she bites, she refuses to use the potty. It’s exhausting and then ... they expect us to entertain them, when I’m trying to just keep my kid from jumping off the stairs and into an ER visit."

A visit at the grandparents' house is often not a fun catch-up time for mom and dad. It's rare to get to sit down and have an adult conversation when they're busy trying to play Safety Police. It's common to leave one of these visits frustrating and like it wasn't really a visit at all.

- YouTube www.youtube.com

Even just putting the kids in the car for a 20-minute drive is more work than it seems

Taking the kids out of the house requires packing a bag, bringing extra clothes, loading up on snacks, etc.

It seems easy to "pop over" but it actually absorbs the majority of the day between prep, visit, and aftermath. In the case of the OP mom and her parents that are "just" 30 minutes away, that's an entire hour of just driving, not counting any visiting time. If anyone's ever driven with young kids, you know that's an eternity! For a drive like that, you need snacks, you need entertainment. You may have to clean up spills, deal with traffic tantrums, or pull over to break up a fight. It's really a lot of work.

Naps and routines go to hell

Parents with babies and toddlers know all too well — there is a price to pay for taking the kids out of the house for too long.

Chances are, the baby won't nap in a strange environment and then you're stuck with a cranky kid the rest of the night. You can and will try, bringing your little pack-and-play and your best intentions, but the process will be draining and probably unsuccessful.

And then guess what? You're totally screwed when you go home later, yay!

Kids with special needs require even more consistency

Kids with autism or ADHD can really struggle outside of their zone of safety. They might become severely dysregulated, have meltdowns, or engage in dangerous behaviors. This adds even more stress to parents and makes the visits even less fun and satisfying in the end.

Explaining and mediating the generational divide

parents, parenting, moms, dads, grandparents, millennial grandparents, gen x, boomers, grandparent conflict, grandma, grandpa It may be hard to navigate, but a positive child-grandparent relationship is such a powerful thing. Photo by Tim Kilby on Unsplash

Why is this a conflict almost all parents can relate to?

Is this a Boomer vs Millennials thing?

Some experts think that generational values and traditions might play a role.

"Many Boomers were accustomed to more traditional, hierarchical family dynamics, where visiting grandparents was a way for the younger generation to show respect," says Caitlin Slavens, a family psychologist.

But that's not to say this is a new problem. I can remember my own parents driving me and my brothers over an hour to visit my grandparents seemingly every other weekend, but very few occasions where they came to visit us. It must have driven my parents nuts back then!

Plus, it's easy to forget that it's hard for older people to travel, too. They may have their own issues and discomforts when it comes to being away from their home.

"But for today’s parents, balancing careers, kids’ routines, and the demands of modern parenting is a much bigger undertaking. Grandparents might not always see how childproofing their space or making the trip themselves could make a huge difference, especially considering how travel and disruption can impact younger kids' moods and routines," Slavens says.

"So yes, this divide often comes down to different expectations and life experiences, with older generations potentially not seeing the daily demands modern families face."

Is there any hope for parents and grandparents coming to a better understanding, or a compromise?

"First, open conversations help bridge the divide—explain how much of a difference it makes when the kids stay in a familiar space, especially when they’re very young," suggests Slavens.

"Share practical details about the challenges, like childproofing concerns or travel expenses, to help grandparents see it from a parent’s perspective. You might even work together to figure out solutions, like making adjustments to create a more child-friendly space in their home or agreeing on a shared travel plan."

Ultimately, it's a good thing when grandparents, friends, and other relatives want to see the kids. We all have the same goal. Just look at how incredible it can be when everything goes right:

- YouTube www.youtube.com

"It’s helpful to approach the topic with empathy, focusing on everyone’s goal: more quality time together that’s enjoyable and low-stress for everyone involved. For parents, it’s about setting boundaries that work, and for grandparents, it’s about recognizing that flexibility can really show the parents that you are ... willing to make adjustments for their children and grandchildren."

Enjoyable, low-stress quality time — that's something everyone can get behind.

This article was originally posted last year. It has been updated.

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Therapist shares her 'one rule' for new stepparents that puts their role in proper perspective

Knowing your role in a child's life can be confusing.

via Cava/Photos

A stepmother and her stepdaughter.

New stepparents face many challenges when navigating a complex dynamic when they become part of a family. The stepchildren may feel loyal to the biological parent, making bonding or getting along tricky. They also have to forge a positive relationship with their new spouse's ex-partner, who may be bitter about the breakup or protective of their children.

Stepparents may also feel like they don’t belong and have a hard time finding their role in the household. Abby, a Licensed Professional Counselor, recently shared on TikTok the “one rule” that stepparents should follow when forging a relationship with their stepkids, and it should bring them some comfort in a stressful situation.

How can new step-parents create a good relationship with their step-children?

“Let’s not overcomplicate it. Let’s not panic. There are a lot things about being a stepparent that are challenging,” Abby says in her video. “And you probably didn’t expect it, and you’re figuring it out, but there is one rule. That rule is: the kid decides your relationship and the pace of your relationship. That is the only way to have a healthy relationship. You cannot force it. You cannot make them treat you as a mom if they don’t feel that you’re a mom.”

@abbytherapist

Step parent relationships can be complex, give it time, don’t push it. #blendedfamily #coparenting #stepparents #stepmom #bonusmom #momlife #motherhood

Abby’s advice makes sense because every child is going to have different needs and expectations from a stepparent, and a lot of that has to do with their relationship with their biological parents. Some children may rush to embrace a new parental figure, while others may take time to adjust to the new stepparents because they don't want to betray their biological parents.

Further, it’s impossible to make anyone love you, let alone like you, whether it’s a romantic relationship or you are joining a new family. Just because you married a child’s parent doesn’t mean they’ll automatically take a shine to you, and forcing yourself into their lives might make it harder for them to feel comfortable around you.

stepchildren, stepmoms, step-dads, stepparenting, therapist advice, A step mom bonding with her stepson.via Cava/Photos

How to build a strong relationship with my step-children.

Carl E. Pickhardt, Ph. D., also believes that new stepparents should refrain from rushing into relationships with their new stepchildren, especially if they are teenagers. "As an introducer of family change, starting a new practice, stopping one that is old, and increasing or decreasing the frequency of some family behavior, I believe it’s generally best to go slow,” Pickhardt writes at Psychology Today. “First, fit into the ongoing family before trying to fit it to the stepparent. Allow adequate time for everyone to just get used to living with each other.”


stepparent, stepchildren, family, modern family, relationshipsA step-mom fights with her teenage stepson. via Cava/Photos

Pickhardt adds that new stepparents should avoid creating early resentment by being too demanding. They should also put their young marriage ahead of parenting duties and refrain from trying too hard to impress the children. Finally, they should be open with their new spouse about any discomfort they may feel adopting the new role.

Abby’s belief in allowing the children to decide their relationships, especially in the beginning, may be frustrating to some new stepparents who want to jump right in and create a happy family. But her advice should also be a bit of a relief. You don’t have to do it all yourself, so it’s time to listen to the child and be there for them however they choose. That, in turn, should create a deeper relationship in the long run.

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